Forum:Wiadomość od Fandom

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To ciężki post do napisania. Niektórzy z Was mogą wiedzieć, że od dawna uwielbiam Uncyclopedię i jej siostrzane projekty. Byłam bardzo aktywna na angielskiej wersji, aż zostałam administratorem. Napisałam trzy wyróżnione artykuły i stworzyłam cztery wyróżnione grafiki. Uwielbiałam spędzać czas w tym miejscu.

Niestety czas idzie do przodu i są aspekty wiki, które stawały się coraz większym problemem w ostatnich latach. Zawsze dawaliśmy Wam duża swobodę, pomimo wielu stron, które wykraczają poza ramy Zasad Użytkowania. To nie tylko losowe obrazki i artykuły, ale pełnoprawna treść, która powinna znajdować się na wiki, lecz nie na Fandomie. Przez lata to ignorowaliśmy, ale musimy popracować nad akceptowalnością treści na naszym portalu. Dlatego przyglądamy się ponownie treści i zdecydowaliśmy, że nie jest to coś co chcemy gościć na naszych serwerach.

Wyczyszczenie tej wiki byłoby niemożliwe, a i tak doprowadziłoby to do usunięcia ważnych (ale problematycznych) artykułów. Po prostu nie ma takiej możliwości.

Oczywiście są inne możliwości i oferujemy naszą pomoc, żeby zmiana poszła gładko. Jakiś czas temu część użytkowników przeniosła się na serwery Miraheze. Dogadanie się w sprawie połączenia wiki byłoby najrozsądniejszym rozwiązaniem. Możemy udostępnić zrzut wszystkich artykułów utworzonych tutaj albo możecie bardziej selektywnie podejść do przeniesienia tylko najlepszych artykułów. Istnieje także wiele innych serwisów hostingowych dla wiki. Nie jestem w stanie żadnego polecić, ale wiele wiki w podobnej sytuacji wybiera właśnie Miraheze.

Niestety nie możemy udostępnić zrzutu z obrazami, ze względu na prawa autorskie – to co jest dozwolonym użytkiem tutaj, może stanowić naruszenie pierwotnego prawa autorskiego, jeśli zostanie udostępnione w formie zrzutu danych. Istnieją jednak sposoby na przeniesienie obrazów, jak https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Exporting_all_the_files_of_a_wiki

Chcę jeszcze raz wyrazić żal z zaistniałej sytuacji i zaoferować pomoc w przeprowadzeniu przenosin. -- Sannse <staff /> (help forum | blog) 17:24, lut 26, 2019 (UTC)

First of all, Nonsensopedia is not Uncyclopedia, we have different rules than them and different content. We mostly avoid controversial content and I don't think we have anything on Nonsensopedia that would violate your Terms of Use. If there is any specific content that violates ToU, please point it out to us.

We are baffled by your decision. We've been here for the last 13 years and we have never been threatened to be thrown out of Wikia. Yes, part of our community left for Mirahaze, but that decision didn't make any sense because by doing so they lost all SEO and Google is a major source of traffic here. We are still here only because of SEO.

I am utterly disgusted by this aproach to communities by Fandom's management's behaviour. We didn't receive any notice beforehand that such thing could happen, there wasn't a chance for us to argue.

As a person who has spent the last two years trying my best to keep this community popular, even with Fandom trying to destroy it, I feel betrayed. Ostrzyciel | Dyskusja 17:42, lut 26, 2019 (UTC)

Polski

Po pierwsze, Nonsensopedia nie jest Uncyclopedią, mamy inne zasady niż oni i inne treści. Zwykle unikamy kontrowersyjnych treści i nie sądzę żebyśmy mieli cokolwiek na Nonsensopedii, co łamałoby wasze Zasady Użytkowania. Jeśli mamy jakieś konkretne treści, które łamią zasady, to prosimy o ich wskazanie.

Jesteśmy bardzo zdziwieni tą decyzją. Jesteśmy tu od 13 lat i nigdy nie grożono nam wyrzuceniem z Wikii. Owszem, część naszej społeczności przeszła na Miraheze, ale ta decyzja nie ma żadnego sensu, bo w ten sposób utracili całe pozycjonowanie w wyszukiwarkach, a Google jest znaczącym źródłem ruchu dla nas. Jesteśmy tu nadal właśnie dla pozycjonowania.

Jestem zniesmaczony takim podejściem zarządu Fandomu do społeczności. Nie zostaliśmy powiadomieni wcześniej w jakikolwiek sposób, że taka rzecz może się wydarzyć, nie mieliśmy szansy nawet podjąć dyskusji.

Jako osoba, która spędziła ostatnie dwa lata próbując jak najlepiej umie utrzymać popularność Nonsensopedii, nawet gdy Fandom próbował ją zniszczyć, czuję się oszukany. Ostrzyciel | Dyskusja 17:54, lut 26, 2019 (UTC)

I'm afraid you do not avoid controversial topic, nor do you seem to try. That is the key different between you and the other wiki, which is Bezsensopedia. Articles insulting religious ideas an beliefs and those that are aimed against them have been tolerated and kept since the wiki was founded. I'm aware how you may feel when Fandom is trying to get rid of you, but this shouldn't be a reason to lie so directly… Try to defend in a different way (even if you know you won't achieve, so do I, by the way), but for the time being there are so many articles that they can link here that it looks as though you've dug a pit to be buried in on your own. Or given them a shovel. {{SUBST:User:Mustafar29/sign}} 18:47, lut 26, 2019 (UTC)

Obawiam się, że jednak nie omijacie kontrowersyjnych tematów ani nawet nie próbujecie. To jest kluczowa różnica między Wami a drugą wiki, Bezsensopedią. Artykuły obrażające poglądy religijne i te wymierzone bezpośrednio przeciwko nim są i były tu tolerowane, odkąd wiki powstała. Wiem, jak możecie się czuć, kiedy Fandom próbuje się Was pozbyć w taki sposób, ale to nie powinien być powód do tak bezpośredniego kłamania… Spróbujcie bronić się inaczej (nawet jeżeli wiecie, że nie wygracie. Ja też to wiem, tak na marginesie), ale na chwilę obecną jest tyle artykułów, które mogą Wam podlinkować, że wygląda to tak, jakbyście sami wykopali sobie dołek na pogrzeb. Albo dali im łopatę. {{SUBST:User:Mustafar29/sign}} 18:47, lut 26, 2019 (UTC)

Maybe sticking on Fandom is not a good idea after all. And even if you claim you are not an Uncyclopedia, you should understand that most people regard you as the Polish version. Besides, the English community is already trying to reunite with the fork.--The Pioneer JP (dyskusja) 19:01, lut 26, 2019 (UTC)

They do not have to be an equivalent to have a similar content / Nie muszą być jej odpowiednikiem, by zawierać podobne treści {{SUBST:User:Mustafar29/sign}} 19:38, lut 26, 2019 (UTC)

It seems like this issue has already been discussed in the past few years, and I thought those threads had been closed thousands of years ago and a proper solution had been found, but I assume that's not enough. This time it isn't a matter of two or even more articles, but of the whole wiki that is supposed to be shutted down in no time, according to your opinion.

First, it's always good to point out what really violates Terms of Use so that we can make our articles better and free from phrases that might insult a specific group of people. Your message was translated from English to Polish and I don't see any example of pages that (potentially) violate ToU, in contrast to Uncyclopedia. It also happened to Nonciclopedia and Inciclopedia, where no examples were given, so it makes your decision slightly unreasonable, as if you were just trying to get rid of our wikis and nothing more.

There's also no use shutting down Nonsensopedia since it's one of the most popular Polish wikis, according to the WAM, so it would be a kind of a huge loss.

Also, please note that similar problems have already occurred and they were resolved, therefore I don't think there's the necessity to shut down a wiki that has been hosted by FANDOM for 13 years now. In addition, our political option says that we do not spread hate, discrimination or any other form of harm. But every time we got a complaint from you about some offensive content and “potential legal threats”, you never saw any other possibility but just deleting our articles without even having consulted it with a Polish-speaking person. Is it a timeless struggle then? Or does it have to be one? Can't we just clear up our articles, delete sensitive content, and, as a consequence, keep our work?

This problem may be easily resolved, but it looks like you don't even want to. Maanvaiva (dyskusja) 20:21, lut 26, 2019 (UTC)

As we speak, there is an article on the side bar that says "Masterbation day", that's the sort of content that is a problem. I'm here to try and make things go smoothly, but I can't change the decision I'm afraid.

You might want to know that the English version is talking here about where to go next -- Sannse <staff /> (help forum | blog) 23:34, lut 26, 2019 (UTC)

Does it offend anyone in any way? Is it anyhow sexist? The answer is “no” in both cases, so I guess it’s just a thing that is usually called “hypersensitivity”. Shutting down such a large wiki is a really bad taste and surely won’t bring much popularity, especially when it comes to closing a wiki that is well-known among Polish community. Is it because Uncyclopedias don’t fall into the category of “fandoms” where fans come to learn more about their favorite video games? I find it kind of related to the process of migrating wikia.com domains to fandom.com ones and it looks like you’re trying to avoid or even get rid of this problem with just one (miss)click. Or it has to be a completely random set of circumstances. We’ve never expected this to happen, and there has never been a “warning” that our content is too offensive. Furthermore, a type of humor that wouldn’t offend anyone in this world simply doesn’t exist, as there’s always a pinch of derision. We’re not talking only about our content that is (supposedly) full of insults, discrimination, sexism etc., but we’ve been spending hours, days, weeks, months creating it. It’s like one big artwork of thousands of people. And for what? To close our wiki after such a long time? As Serscull said, it’s nothing but showing a lack of respect to a large number of artists, who are also your devoted volunteers trying to bring people together, and, as a result, make FANDOM more popular. Maanvaiva (dyskusja) 19:58, lut 27, 2019 (UTC)

Moreover, according to the WAM, Nonsensopedia is one of the most popular wikis in the category of Lifestyle. Are you still sure you want to shut it down? We're trying to prove you wrong and you should already know that there are too many drawbacks to do it. Maanvaiva (dyskusja) 15:30, lut 28, 2019 (UTC)

Nothing can justify deletion of project involving voluntary contribution of hundreds (thousands?) of people lasting 13 years. No social standard allows to neglect those person-hours that could be spend on literally anything else. If you want to convince people that devoting their free time and passion could be wasted with a click, do it. But you're The Wikia itself, you are relying on volunteers, you are encouraging people to volunteer. Deletion of Nonsensopedia in this manner is a spit to my face. Face of creator, artist, and devoted volunteer.

Logic behind the reasoning is so absurd I doubt I even want to debunk it. Mentioning random pages as a reference is cherrypicking. Pasting this message (great polished translation) is another slap—it's merely days after an article has been top-down deleted. If you want to count offensive articles, {{Paszkwil}} template comes handy. But guess what: we are a humour encyclopaedia. Do you expect us to not have any examples of black humour? How can you ever laugh at something not attacking it in any manner? The WikiMedia commons got tons of uncensored pornography, which is left without warnings and age confirmation—we have a few articles with notification suggesting to pick another random page.

As you have said, those standards were tolerated—why would anyone expect us to keep up to the sharper ones? It was just alright. Punishing anyone (by "anyone" I mean the community) for doing things not described as crime is against any justice.

To conclude: nothing justifies deletion of this amount of contribution, and wasting the legacy is losing your future as a volunteer-oriented project. The claims about us being too politically incorrect is a copy-paste slander. Calling "just alright" not alright is saying goodbye to future contributors.

Those are a few words from an admin, artist, creator. Serscull 00:14, lut 27, 2019 (UTC)

Nie rozumiem po co te awantury. Skoro Fandom decyduje o zamknięciu Nonsensopedii, a istnieje już od dawna jej druga działająca wersja na Miraheze, to w czym problem? 178.235.188.226 (dyskusja) 07:30, lut 27, 2019 (UTC)

Pozycjonowanie. Serscull 16:15, lut 27, 2019 (UTC)

There is no need for Nonsensopedia to disappear. There are other options, as Anon says. Have a look at http://meta.uncyclomedia.org/wiki/Forum:Reorganization_of_the_whole_Uncycs for a discussion for all the language versions. Your good work will be preserved. And with this version closing, you will get all the SEO attention, you won't be sharing it as the earlier forks have done. I'm hopeful this will be a good move for you -- Sannse <staff /> (help forum | blog) 16:49, lut 27, 2019 (UTC)

It does NOT address any of mentioned issues. It's still a punch for volunteers, who'll have to spend another efforts just on saving their work and years worth of heritage, instead of just expanding it. It's still making me ask myself if I ever want to work on such projects anymore. It's still blasting a nuke to deal with a mosquito. You seem to ignore fact that things mentioned in the original post are not relevant on this here wiki—predictions made in the original paste just don't match the reality. Serscull 22:59, lut 27, 2019 (UTC)

I would like to reiterate: we are not Uncyclopedia, we are a completely different project with different goals and we feel treated unfairly. I have sent an email to Fandom support detailing this, please, if you can, take your time to carefully read it. As for this page about masturbation in popular pages on sidebar – funny thing is I wrote to Fandom support about this before (support ticket no. 431061) where I pointed out this very issue, that it highlights pages that are not representative of our wiki, but are clickbaity. I will quote myself from that support ticket:

So, about that new module with most popular pages – it does more harm than good. We don’t want to promote our most popular pages, that makes no sense at all. Maybe it does make sense on pop-culture wikis, where the most popular page would be for example the main character from the movie, but not here. We cover a wide variety of topics and create our own content, not describe other’s works. If we show the same content to the public over and over again they will just become bored and go away. Moreover, these most popular pages are heavily influenced by recent activity in polish politics (that’s why you see there Jerzy Owsiak, he was in the headlines for the last couple of days) and that’s not always desirable – in this case we don’t want to promote ourselves off of a tragedy (it is related to the recent public murder of Gdańsk’s president). We have also observed a feedback loop with these most popular pages: they are heavily promoted on the mobile skin which makes them stay at the top for even longer, which makes them more popular, etc. This way we’ve been stuck with a dumb article (Słownik:Masturbacja) permanently at the top just because it has a dumb name that makes teenagers excited. Seriously, it’s been there for at least half a year and it’s not even a good article. Now we have Hitler as one of the most popular, just because he’s Hitler and people click on it, but the topic has been done to death (no pun intended) and we don’t want him to be there.

So, yeah, as we have an alternative system in place (Czy nie wiesz, which means did you know), I asked if we could possibly hide popular pages on Nonsensopedia and was met with firm no. Please take a moment to think about this. Ostrzyciel | Dyskusja 17:56, lut 27, 2019 (UTC)

PS. While we wouldn't have to share SEO with anyone (well theoretically, because we are not going to merge with Miraheze fork for a multitude of reasons), we would be deprived of our original URL. As Fandom would have no use for nonsensopedia.wikia.com, will we be able to set up a redirect to a new host? Ostrzyciel | Dyskusja 17:59, lut 27, 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry we can't do that. It would still seem as though we were hosting you. I suggest you get a URL such as nonsensopedia.com (which is available)

On the overall discussion here: I can't change the decision that's been made. I acknowledge that each wiki is different, but the general themes of edgy and black humor are part of any of the wikis we are asking to move.

User:The Pioneer JP has been talking to wikis about alternatives, I've asked him to call in here -- Sannse <staff /> (help forum | blog) 18:07, lut 28, 2019 (UTC)

Who made the assessment that determined that Nonsensopedia's content is inappropriate? From what I know, Fandom's community support team now doesn't have any Polish speaker, so was this just based on an assumption that we are the same as Uncyclopedia? I think it would be fair if our content would be assessed by a native Polish speaker. And I know that Fandom does have many Polish employees, just assigned to different tasks. Ostrzyciel | Dyskusja 18:22, lut 28, 2019 (UTC)

As a former admin here and current (albeit inactive) on Uncyclopedia I am utterly disgusted by your decision. Fandom has always been unhelpful and restricting, but this is just unimaginable. I can't fend off the feeling that you are trying to dispose of Uncyclopedias just because they don't fit your "fandom" theme. For almost 14 years there were only several cases of offensive content (which were quickly resolved by the way), so your sudden decision is at least a little strange, especially when it coincides with "fandom.com" domain change.

If there is any other reason, I would like to know. Offensive articles? Nonsensopedia can definitely take care of that. Just point out every article that needs to be fixed, and I'm sure the community will fix them in a matter of days.

Even taking aside the pointlessness of your decision, this is horrible for a multitude of reasons:

• You will lose wikis which generate a lot of views and money (because Uncycs were forced to switch to Oasis, whose only goal I think was to introduce ads to your platform).
• You will destroy those who have enabled your platform to get so far (let's not forget that biggest Uncycs have existed since you were called Wikicities).
• You will show that the only thing you care about is money (because offensive content means less advertisers willing to buy ads). Yes, i know that money is every company's priority, but I hoped you would at least consider points given by my predecessors. However, you seem utterly fixated on your decision to the point of absurdity.

Fandom is home to a lot of wikis on almost every possible topic. Why humor needs to be excluded? As Serscull has said, almost every type of humor is at least a little bit insulting to someone (unless you want Uncycs to only be filled with puns, but there already are a multitude of sites devoted to that).

That's my 3 cents. I really hope you reconsider your decision. Eksekk | dyskusja 20:58, lut 28, 2019 (UTC)

Regarding the Fandom's kicking of Uncyclopedias

Sorry to post this in English and for being late... I need to post to all reachable Uncycs and I'm too busy to translate the same messages one by one.

However, that's not the point. The point is that two of the supporters of Uncyclopedias, Miraheze and Uncyclopedia.co (by Lyrithya), have agreed to help all the Uncycs and to reorganize them all, including those hosted by Carlb (which have also suffered from poor technical supports for years), and have created a forum on UnMeta regarding it. The available options and the basic principles regarding this reorganization plan are shown there in detail, and you can seek for the solution based on the provided information.

After a conclusion is drawn, please post your decision to the forum above so that we can deal with issues including interwiki prefixes.

Thanks for reading, and please feel free to join our newly created UnMeta Discord if you need our help.--The Pioneer JP (dyskusja) 04:02, mar 1, 2019 (UTC)

P.S. I know you already have a fork on Miraheze. Reuniting with them is one (and probably the best) option IMO.--The Pioneer JP (dyskusja) 04:02, mar 1, 2019 (UTC)

It's probably the worst option possible, with Miraheze being horribly slow and unstable. The fork is currently covered in a thick layer of Italian pages that were imported by completely incompetent stewards and after like two months they still haven't dealt with it. Add to this constant technical issues like the one when all images disappeared from from the fork for a week (because of incompetent stewards) and finance that hangs on literally a thousand bucks and you've got yourself a really terrible host. Seriously, in their summary for FY2018 Miraheze has admitted that their financial situation looked unstable and they had money only for the next eight months. Migrating a wiki to Miraheze now wouldn't be a shot in the foot, it would be a shot in the head. We are looking for something stable, something that will survive at least ten years, not a few months. Ostrzyciel | Dyskusja 08:19, mar 1, 2019 (UTC)

PS. Remember what happened to WikiHumor? Ostrzyciel | Dyskusja 08:21, mar 1, 2019 (UTC)

Although I admit that mistaken import of Italian pages was a bad mistake, Stews weren't notified very well about it, because of lacking Polish volunteers and lacking English speakers on that community. I, as a CVT, have helped them clean up almost all of them after Zel told me about the situation (literally hundreds of pages. So am I incompetent as well?). Now it's almost done. Other servers have other tech issues. Carlb's servers fail very often (and his support being very slow), independent servers will cost you to run (and mostly result in some kind of error if you don't have good tech members in your own community), and .co lacks in Polish staff as well. I don't know about WikiHumor tbh.--The Pioneer JP (dyskusja) 09:32, mar 1, 2019 (UTC)

Anyways, please make sure to post your conclusion on UnMeta when drawn. Also I should note that Carlb and his uncycs will not likely to recognize you if you go somewhere out of Miraheze, because the one on Miraheze runs with his custom domain.--The Pioneer JP (dyskusja) 09:36, mar 1, 2019 (UTC)

We are having an admin meeting regarding this on Saturday. Until then nothing has been decided. WikiHumor (and many other projects like it) is dead and I wouldn't be surprised if Miraheze meets the same fate soon. Ostrzyciel | Dyskusja 10:09, mar 1, 2019 (UTC)

Bardzo źle i konfliktowo patrzycie na tę sytuację. Aż mi wstyd, że nie rozumiecie powagi sytuacji. Administracja Nonsensopedii zawsze cechowała się bezmyślną awanturniczością, ale to droga do ośmieszenia się a nie osiągnięcia sukcesu. Inne Uncyclopedie już dawno przyjęły tę informację ze spokojem. Młodsi użytkownicy z Nonsensopedia Miraheze śmieją się z waszej nieprofesjonalnej postawy. Szkoda mi Sannse, więc spróbuję wam to wytłumaczyć po swojemu:

W ujęciu najbardziej ogólnym, Fandom jest hostingiem promującym wikie o tematyce związanej głównie z multimediami i popkulturą i nowymi trendami. Hostowane są tu wiki mniej lub bardziej pasujące do tego założenia. Stara, przebrzmiała tematycznie 'encyklopedia hejtów na całą rzeczywistość', pasowała do Wikicities oraz Wikii, ale to już przeszłość. Trzeba iść z duchem czasu. Skoro Zarząd Fandomu stwierdził, że tematyka Uncyclopedii nie pasuje do ich wizerunku i spójności koncecji rozwojowej, to zgodnie z regulaminem, mają prawo zamknąć Nonsensopedię oraz pozostałe Uncy. To Fandom jest właścicielem treści każdej wiki, a nie wy. Postępują zgodnie z prawem, więc nie muszą się wam tłumaczyć.

Jeśli macie godność, to darujcie sobie te ataki podjazdowe na stronie dyskusyjnej mirahezowej Nonsensopedii biurokraty ZelDeleta, które od samego początku stosujecie wobec nas. My wam nie włazimy w dyskusje. 178.235.188.133 (dyskusja) 12:46, mar 1, 2019 (UTC)

Wszyscy wiemy Zel, że to ty. Jak szukasz idioty, który nabierze się na twoje teksty, to stań przed lustrem - wtedy znajdziesz frajera. Runab0 (dyskusja) 15:22, mar 1, 2019 (UTC)

Useful stuff

Hey. I am a bureaucrat of the Russian Uncyclopedia. Our project decided to evacuate to Miraheze with a screwed-in personal domain. In order to take with you all the downloaded pictures, a friend of Absurdopedia wrote a script that allows you to extract files from the wikiproject. To help the entire Uncy family, we decided to share the script with everyone who is forced, like us, to move from Fandom. Maybe it will be useful for you. https://github.com/ArtUshak/Wiki-Export --Icniuhtli, Тэйтанка-птекила 06:25, mar 2, 2019 (UTC)

Note

Just to let you know, I'm away this weekend. I'll come back to this conversation on Monday -- Sannse <staff /> (help forum | blog) 17:14, mar 2, 2019 (UTC)

We'll be waiting patiently. By the way, we'd like to thank you – we know that you're just a messenger and you've been tasked to do the dirty job. Please don't take anything personally, as we're discussing the points. Serscull 17:31, mar 2, 2019 (UTC)